[MlMt] forwarding HTML emails

Tracy Valleau tracy at dlsi.biz
Wed Jan 17 15:21:19 EST 2018
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Thank you for your comments, Bill.

> Not if you're using the 2.0BETA series, which has a plethora of 
> controls
> for perpetuating a bad idea in the Composer panel of the 
> Preferences...

I really just wanted an answer, not a political comment on whether or 
not HTML email is "a bad idea".
HTML email is -a reality- with which one must deal.

I started writing code in 1978, and was using email before most people 
on this list were likely born. I'm not a big fan of HTML email myself, 
but if I get one, and need to forward it to a client, then the client 
should see what I saw, not an attachment.

Almost every other email client in the world does this.

>> If so, I'm curious as to why, technically. Since MM can show HTML
>> emails now,
>
> When couldn't it?

It couldn't in the first versions, when I started using it. (Mine was 
order #63, Jan 12, 2011.)

> This is fundamentally problematic because "just forward them" does not
> have a well-defined technical meaning other than embedding the full
> original message as an attachment.

I was simplifying to express my request clearly.

HTML email is a few headers and HTML content. It is not any more complex 
than a web page, basically.

The issue is that when forwarding, MM strips out all the HTML code. Try 
viewing the source of an HTML email and you'll see what I mean.

My point is that the original source is IN the email,  else I'd not see 
it all prettified, eh? So it's there.

Why not "just" forward ALL that original source? The head, the tables, 
the divs, the body... That way  the recipient would see what I see.

I can understand not doing it for "political" reasons ("all email should 
be text"). What I don't understand is why it isn't an option. Mail can 
do it; Outlook can do it; Thunderbird can do it; PostBox can do it...

As a programmer with over 40 years of experience, I -can- understand 
boxing one's self in to a point at which integrating the capability is a 
huge amount of work. That would be a legitimate reason for not offering 
it (albeit unfortunate.)

But from a USER perspective, not being able to "just forward" HTML email 
is odd, and from a recipient's standpoint... well in my 4 decades, I've 
-never- received an email that said "to see the html version, click on 
the attachment."

Best wishes,

Tracy
www.valleau.art



> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 00:02:56 -0500
> From: "Bill Cole" <mmlist-20120120 at billmail.scconsult.com>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] forwarding HTML emails
> Message-ID:
> 	<487F7308-CEE0-4868-B1BB-C8D8875E407A at billmail.scconsult.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> On 16 Jan 2018, at 18:00 (-0500), Tracy Valleau wrote:
>
>> Hello
>> Do I take it that  forwarding HTML emails can still only be done via
>> attachment?
>
> Not if you're using the 2.0BETA series, which has a plethora of 
> controls
> for perpetuating a bad idea in the Composer panel of the 
> Preferences...
>
>> If so, I'm curious as to why, technically. Since MM can show HTML
>> emails now,
>
> When couldn't it? I adopted MM circa v1.5 and my first pestering of
> Benny was to work out how to make it easier to config MM to only 
> render
> HTML when absolutely needed.
>
>> why can't it (just)  forward them?
>
> This is fundamentally problematic because "just forward them" does not
> have a well-defined technical meaning other than embedding the full
> original message as an attachment. If you want something else, I 
> *THINK*
> the MM options for tweaking HTML forwarding should give you something
> you can live with.
>
> -- 
> Bill Cole
> bill at scconsult.com or billcole at apache.org
> (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
> Currently Seeking Steady Work: https://linkedin.com/in/billcole
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:27:00 -0800
> From: uncat <uncat at torrecillas.com>
> To: mailmate at lists.freron.com
> Subject: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID: <E46D1B6E-31B5-49E0-9076-3299FF3BF061 at torrecillas.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm interested in trying out MailMate. Questions: Is my password to my 
> email account or my email address stored anywhere? Or sent anywhere? 
> Is there any assurance of that?
>
> -- 
> Daniel
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:33:57 +0100
> From: "Fabian Blechschmidt" <lists-freron-com at fabian-blechschmidt.de>
> To: blogs at torrecillas.com, "MailMate Users"
> 	<mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID:
> 	<5406E8EA-FA32-4EFC-840E-EE807E9ACED6 at fabian-blechschmidt.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 8:27, uncat wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm interested in trying out MailMate. Questions: Is my password to 
>> my
>> email account or my email address stored anywhere? Or sent anywhere?
>> Is there any assurance of that?
>>
>> -- 
>> Daniel
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> I'm only a user, so this answer are only observation - I have no 
> access
> to the code.
>
>> Is my password to my email account or my email address stored
>> anywhere?
>
> The password can (not must) be stored in the Mac OS X keychain.
>
>> Or sent anywhere?
>
> MailMate is not "cloud" - so except the mail server itself I assume it
> stays on your machine.
>
>> Is there any assurance of that?
>
> I hope Benny will answer your mail too and back me up :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:05:29 +0100
> From: "Jan Erik =?utf-8?q?Mostr=C3=B6m?=" <lists at mostrom.pp.se>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID: <E45268A4-6B95-4814-A47F-30406D319D06 at mostrom.pp.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 8:33, Fabian Blechschmidt wrote:
>
>> Or sent anywhere?
>>
>>
>> MailMate is not "cloud" - so except the mail server itself I assume 
>> it
>> stays on your machine.
>
> Except for the obvious thing of logging in to the mail server to
> validate that you is you.
>
> = jem
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:49:04 +0100
> From: "Benny Kjær Nielsen" <mailinglist at freron.com>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] forwarding HTML emails
> Message-ID: <DCF22C3A-1681-4AF8-8E9F-D99EF4181A94 at freron.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 6:02, Bill Cole wrote:
>
>>> why can't it (just)  forward them?
>>
>> This is fundamentally problematic because "just forward them" does 
>> not
>> have a well-defined technical meaning other than embedding the full
>> original message as an attachment. If you want something else, I
>> *THINK* the MM options for tweaking HTML forwarding should give you
>> something you can live with.
>
> Yes, both 1.10 and 2.0BETA has the ability to embed the original HTML
> when needed. This is very similar to what other email clients do 
> except
> for the fact that you cannot edit the HTML. If you try then MailMate
> tells you that it'll convert it to plain text first.
>
> It's very tricky (for all email clients) to embed HTML, because HTML
> wasn't designed for this purpose. MailMate uses an external CSS 
> inliner
> (Premailer) to work around most of these problems, but as previously
> discussed on this list then this can be slow at times.
>
> (The problem of embedding HTML is even bigger for webmail clients.)
>
> -- 
> Benny
> https://freron.com/become_a_mailmate_patron/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:51:33 +0100
> From: "Benny Kjær Nielsen" <mailinglist at freron.com>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID: <E729C362-2504-44A6-8942-DFD518424B4B at freron.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 8:33, Fabian Blechschmidt wrote:
>
>>> Is my password to my email account or my email address stored
>>> anywhere?
>>
>> The password can (not must) be stored in the Mac OS X keychain.
>>
>>> Or sent anywhere?
>>
>> MailMate is not "cloud" - so except the mail server itself I assume 
>> it
>> stays on your machine.
>>
>>> Is there any assurance of that?
>>
>> I hope Benny will answer your mail too and back me up :-)
>
> I back you up. Only thing to add is that one should make sure that SSL
> is always enabled such that a password is never sent to the IMAP/SMTP
> server in plain text. Note that most proper email servers wouldn't 
> even
> allow non-SSL connections.
>
> -- 
> Benny
> https://freron.com/become_a_mailmate_patron/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:06:11 -0500
> From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <smb at cs.columbia.edu>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID: <085CDD6B-7115-4C1E-AD47-EF10A6240A76 at cs.columbia.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 5:51, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:
>
>> On 17 Jan 2018, at 8:33, Fabian Blechschmidt wrote:
>>
>>>> Is my password to my email account or my email address stored
>>>> anywhere?
>>>
>>> The password can (not must) be stored in the Mac OS X keychain.
>>>
>>>> Or sent anywhere?
>>>
>>> MailMate is not "cloud" - so except the mail server itself I assume
>>> it stays on your machine.
>>>
>>>> Is there any assurance of that?
>>>
>>> I hope Benny will answer your mail too and back me up :-)
>>
>> I back you up. Only thing to add is that one should make sure that 
>> SSL
>> is always enabled such that a password is never sent to the IMAP/SMTP
>> server in plain text. Note that most proper email servers wouldn't
>> even allow non-SSL connections.
>>
> What authentication options that don't involve sending passwords does
> MailMate support? Is there a way to configure MM to use only one of
> these safer options if available? I know that I use it with an IMAP
> server that only supports CRAM-MD5 and DIGEST-MD5. There are others
> possible, such as client-side certificates.  (To the original querier:
> if you control your IMAP server, disable plaintext password logins.)
>
>
>         --Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:19:54 -0500
> From: Annamarie <annamarie.pluhar at gmail.com>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] How to get rid of a bad email address
> Message-ID: <2A9AA6A1-487C-4671-B7D2-7EB5098973AC at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Many thanks! Proving once again that the answer is a keystroke away. : 
> )
>
> Annamarie
>
>
> Annamarie Pluhar
> 802-451-1941
> 802-579-5975 (iPhone - not good when I'm at my desk.)
>
> On 16 Jan 2018, at 10:17, John Cooper wrote:
>
>> Annamarie wrote (at 6:31 on 16 Jan 2018):
>>
>>> So I have three emails I've sent out that misspell the address...MM
>>> annoyingly finds the misspelled one and uses it. I know I can fix
>>> this by deleting the misaddressed emails in my Sent Folder BUT I 
>>> need
>>> the record of what I've sent so I don't want to delete them.
>>>
>>> What can I do to stop MM from using the bad one - beside paying 
>>> close
>>> attention to it?
>>
>> I haven't personally tested these methods, but based on my
>> understanding of MailMate you have two methods from which to choose:
>>
>> 1. Move the misaddressed messages out of your Sent folder and into
>> another folder.
>> 2. Blacklist the incorrect addresses:
>>
>>    a. Open a message that contains an incorrect address.
>>    b. Right-click the address you want to tell MailMate not to use.
>>    c. Click **Add "<address>" to Blacklist.**
>>
>> John
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mailmate mailing list
>> mailmate at lists.freron.com
>> https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:44:20 +0100
> From: "Benny Kjær Nielsen" <mailinglist at freron.com>
> To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate at lists.freron.com>
> Subject: Re: [MlMt] Security
> Message-ID: <5A26F29D-26EA-415D-A3F0-A4F3367018C6 at freron.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 17 Jan 2018, at 14:06, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
>
>> What authentication options that don't involve sending passwords does
>> MailMate support? Is there a way to configure MM to use only one of
>> these safer options if available? I know that I use it with an IMAP
>> server that only supports CRAM-MD5 and DIGEST-MD5.
>
> MailMate only supports `CRAM-MD5`. It can be forced to only use this 
> by
> editing `Sources.plist` (and `Submission.plist`) to include this for
> each account:
>
> 	authMechanism = 'CRAM-MD5';
>
> (`XOAUTH` is also supported for Gmail/Outlook.)
>
> The only real reason for the lack of support of other mechanisms is 
> that
> I implemented it myself instead of using a library which probably
> supports more methods (I haven't checked recently).
>
> Also, most of the servers I have access to only support very few
> authentication methods. They don't even support `CRAM-MD5`.
>
> -- 
> Benny
> https://freron.com/become_a_mailmate_patron/
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